New Podcast Series: Leading Talent Engagement Within Supply Chain, with Aaron Lincove

[00:02:24] Mike Ogle: Aaron, welcome to the Supply Chain Careers podcast and this our first episode of the new series titled Supply Chain Talent Building and Engagement.
 

[00:02:34] Aaron Lincove: Thank you, Mike. It’s great to be here. Appreciate the invite. Look forward to the discussion. 
 

[00:02:39] Rodney Apple: Aaron, we greatly appreciate your role, with this new series, helping us with your advisory capacity to provide some special content and guest appearances from time to time as we move forward with the series. To kick things off, could you give us an overview of your background and your journey and supply chain talent building, team development, engagement, and so forth from the first time you worked within supply chain, from the HR business partnership perspective to where you’re at today?
 

[00:03:12] Aaron Lincove: Sure. My very first HR role was a hybrid position, a food manufacturing plant at a grad school between a plant and a corporate office. And so, I got an early experience in the manufacturing supply chain world and working with our vice president supply chain at that company and a director of operations running a plant in Champaign who had come over from Proctor and Gamble and he had just instilled some great best practices, great leadership qualities in me very early as far as the importance of balancing operations, running production, running, monitoring volume and building talent in a great culture at the same time. It was, clearly he, had some great people that, people that he worked for in his prior life. And as I think about going off from there, that’s where my first love for supply chain manufacturing was. I had a couple non-operations roles, but I’ve always come back to my true love in partnering with supply chain leaders. And so, whether it was in the logistics and operations space in the 3PL world, in a bottling space in the Coca-Cola world, or now in paper manufacturing, for me, I love the intersection between watching product out the door and how to build capability in, in order to do that the right way.
 

[00:04:25] Chris Gaffney: Aaron, when we’ve done some of our other leadership episodes, I truly benefited from the partnership that I had with my human resource leads, predominantly at Coca-Cola. And so that that idea of the true human resources business partner is something that I fundamentally benefited from and valued. And that was one of the motivations to try to pull this off. There really are different capabilities required to build that human resources team in support of the supply chain. Obviously, I’ve seen it at big companies and small, so can you talk about the macro HRBP and then some of the critical sub-components of that in human resources, talent management and kind of the leadership space? 
 

[00:05:10] Aaron Lincove: The intersection between HRBP and talent management and the executive leadership is so critical. And, as an HRBP, having that lens to have that macro view of the business, financially, operationally from a people perspective and understanding how to intersect all those is so critical. And from a talent management perspective, really understanding the business as well from how you’re gonna build and drive capability at the front line to that leadership level, and that’s also a special skill. Not every HR business partner is highly skilled in talent management, and not every talent management SME is a highly skilled HR business partner, and so getting that intersection, particularly in large companies, we’ve got COEs, is so critical that partnership is gonna be so important in order to drive value right back to that supply chain leader who they’re working with. 
 

In smaller companies, we don’t have the luxury of having a COE. It’s even more important to have an HR business partner that has depth and breadth in a variety of areas, and so they can speak to talent management best practices. They understand how to look at a frontline individual and think about their career and what kind of capability we need to be driving, as well as working with leadership to understand how am I going to work and identify core capability gaps. And develop a macro talent strategy that not just focuses on learning development, but also focuses on critical on the job experiences and getting those critical experiences to be ready for the next level. So, it really can differ between organizations, but what’s important is that you’ve got the right people working together.
 

You hire the right person in a smaller company that has that depth and breadth to be that great partner that can really work on both sides, right? Put your HRBP hat on one time. Put your talent management hat on one time. Or have a hat that just divides it, right? And be able to work at the same time and in both spaces.
 

[00:07:06] Mike Ogle: Aaron, you defined how some of the pieces there fit together. Can you give us an idea of how those roles have evolved in the way that they’ve worked together during your time of working with supply chain leaders and maybe a little bit of perspective how you see the industry in its evolution. 
 

[00:07:24] Aaron Lincove: Sure, it really has evolved the last 25 years from being in a position where it’s just focused on recruiting, partnering with managers on managing performance and whether it’s RIFs or terminations and things like that, and as well, very tactical work. And it’s evolved greatly to being much more of a strategic lens, having a seat at the table, and being fully integrated and not in operational reviews, financial reviews, and actually needing to, in order to maintain that seat at the table, needing to actually talk through how we’re gonna build capability to enable the accelerating growth, right? Whether it’s operationally or financially. And when it comes within the manufacturing industry, you’ve seen the acceleration happen quite a bit in the tech space. You’ve seen it quite a bit in the CPG space. And it’s evolving in the manufacturing space, particularly the last few years as I’ve gone out and recruited for additional HR business partners, it has accelerated greatly.
 

There’s still companies out there that kind of operating in the older school mindset, but it’s clear that CEOs and the executive teams and the boards of those companies, whether it’s private or public, understand the value that HR needs to bring and must bring in order to maintain whether it’s the internal shareholder growth or external shareholder growth, as well as own employee growth. And so, it’s been great to see. 
 

I think one of the things right now that’s still a struggle, is finding that HR business partner who can dig into the business quickly and understand what their business is doing. They don’t need to be an expert, right? But they need to be able to talk the talk in terms of working with their executives and help them understand if we do an X, Y, and Z from a people perspective, here’s the value you will see. Not just from a soft cost, but a true cost. Here’s the return that you will get, right? If we invest in this level of capability or these kind of people programs, that’s still something that I think is a muscle memory that people need to start building and we’ll continue to build moving forward.
 

[00:09:26] Rodney Apple: So, Aaron, as Chris referenced earlier, He and I both worked with some fantastic HR business partners, supporting those logistics, manufacturing, and other supply chain functions. So I certainly understand that difference between your more, typical HR person, call it old school, that might be a bit more tactical and not as strategic, in their partnership with the business leaders. I think establishing that trust, and confidence is critical for success.
 

What kind of advice do you have for HR and talent management professionals, perhaps those that are getting into the field? What can they do to better prepare themselves, to build that confidence and trust, and overall, relationship with the business leaders? 
 

[00:10:11] Aaron Lincove: Yeah, it’s a great question and it’s something that you think about HR and whether you’re in a manufacturing organization, healthcare, tech, kind of the fundamentals of HR still kind of remain. But what’s important is to understand that what you did before isn’t necessarily gonna work to where you’re going next. And what I look for is someone that has got the right level of vulnerability. They’re humble, strong sense of curiosity. They’re gonna put their HR expertise in the background for a moment, and first focus on working with their accountable executive that they’re partnering with and understanding what they do, how they do it, what their teams do, how they do it, all the metrics they need to be focused on their importance as far as what HR can be driving, as well as getting to know people personally. That’s so critical, right? And establishing that kind of relationship so that when you and that leader are talking, whether it’s business or non-business, that you can just be relaxed. Every conversation is a relaxing conversation, whether it’s in a conversation of disagreement or a conversation of just, Hey, we’re having a great, quarter. Right. And so, when it comes to trust, you gotta have to put your HR expertise in the background because if you start coming in and saying, here’s what I think we need to be doing, here’s what I’ve done in the past, it’s very easy to get shot down, right? And, you gotta understand that you need to understand your leader’s perspective first. The business perspective first before you start bringing in your own personal perspective to influence whatever kind of initiatives are going on.
 

[00:11:42] Chris Gaffney: Aaron, as we dig into the series, we’re gonna cover specific topics within this whole frame of talent building engagement and how HR business partners support that. And we’re gonna bring in a set of all stars who are really experts in the field. This series will also have equal value for the supply chain leaders, and we’re gonna really work on that. From your perspective, what’s important if you’re a supply chain leader in both enabling the success of your HR business partner and that extended team? And maximizing the value of that relationship and kind of navigating what goes on in supply chain operations every day.
 

[00:12:22] Aaron Lincove: Thank you for the question, Chris. I’ve worked with leaders before that it’s been more difficult to get involved with the teams and some that have been very easy. And, as a supply chain leader, embracing the fact that your HR partner here is here to help, right. At the end of the day, I’m trying to deliver a service to my customer, which is that supply chain executive and his or her team. And understanding that mindset that, hey, here’s a partner and an individual who is invested in me to get better. Investing in my team to get better, investing in my employees to help them get better. And having that positive mindset upfront is so important. We all fall in this trap of, Hey, I worked with an individual from function in the past and didn’t work out now I have a negative view. And trying to get that negative view outta your head is so critical, and understanding that this person is here. It’s important to bring that individual, that HR partner, into your meetings, into those reviews. Because, if you think about the importance, like I mentioned, of helping them understand the business, the quicker you can pull ’em in, the faster they will learn about what you and your business serves to do for the company. And so that, that pulling in is so critical.  

 

And then being a part of the selection. I can’t tell you how critical it is that if you’re a supply chain leader and you’re trying to hire an HR business partner, don’t just let the HR function go and hire the person for you. It is important to integrate yourself and raise your hand and say, I wanna be a part of this selection. This role is critical for me and my team for growth and looking for things around how they think, how they partner with leaders, how well they know the business from where they’re coming from. If they can articulate the business from where they are today, the company’s financials, operational, performance metrics, that’s a flag.
 

So, it’s so critical to not just wait and have an HR business partner handed to you, but also be a part of the selection if there’s an open role or the selection, if there’s a promotion coming up. And so, I just really encourage all the leaders out there as you listened to this call and had listened to other HR professionals, think through, how are you integrating with the HR team just as much as how’s the HR team integrating with you?
 

[00:14:29] Mike Ogle: So, Aaron, regarding the process of trying to attract and find talent in supply chain, what practices have you seen work best and where do you think they’re headed?
 

[00:14:40] Aaron Lincove: the practices that work best. You can’t have a peanut butter approach. It really varies. And right now, as an example, the labor shortage that we have at the frontline, that is my company’s biggest focus right now is getting skilled workers. What works best is getting into the schools early. And when I say schools, it is tapping into those high schools with juniors and seniors and tapping into vocational schools and building those strong relationships so that people understand that manufacturing is not just a job. It can be an incredible career. And bringing people with you to demonstrate that here’s an individual that started at a ground floor as a maintenance mechanic as an example. And now he or she is running a profit center, a budget of $500,000 and has half the plan of responsibility. And that kind of stuff is cool and you gotta bring in examples like that and get to the schools and get to those students early.
 

When it comes to the more seasoned professionals, right now can be also equally tough, just given the unemployment. Building pipelines early is critical. One of the things I’ve talked to my teams about in prior years, we talk about it with my team here, is you can’t be reactive in this environment. You can’t be reactive in any environment, but particularly in this environment. And just because you have all your positions filled doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be recruiting. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be going out and looking for talent. And so, the networking component is so critical. Building your bank of people is so critical. Right now, there are so many companies that are experiencing an aging workforce, people who are starting to retire out, the number of companies that you look at the number of people who are 55 and older that are starting to retire outta manufacturing operations oriented companies. It’s pretty scary.
 

And so, also the importance of being proactive, of bringing in that next generation talent and how you’re building those cross-training programs, how you’re extracting knowledge out of your SMEs to build that information into your younger generation so you can have sustainability in your business is so critical. But you really have to look at it as a multi-layer approach. You really have to look at it by a level approach. And sometimes your strategy has to be by role. And the role approach can be so unique based off of the market, the geography, whether or not you’re gonna be recruiting locally, you’re gonna open up a national search, particularly for the specific skillset that you need.
 

The one thing I would encourage organizations to think about and leaders to think about, if you have a one size fits all approach right now, I really encourage you to take a step back and think about how well is that working and what other creative modes could you be taking when it comes to reaching a different demographics, rural, urban college, different schools, HBCUs, supply chain oriented programs. to ensure that you’re gonna bring in the best and well-rounded and diverse talent as possible to make your business successful.
 

[00:17:35] Rodney Apple: That’s great advice, Aaron. So I can certainly echo the frontline. All of our clients are struggling. I don’t know of any company that’s got it down pat. I think being resourceful and thinking across different sourcing channels is imperative to success and having the right infrastructure on the process systems, people side so you can be proactive is critical.
 

What are some of the things that you do from that initial onboarding to ongoing development of leaders and teams and other associates? 
 

[00:18:07] Aaron Lincove: Yeah, the onboarding is so critical. There’s a lot of information out there that shows that if an employee comes in and they feel disengaged in their first nine days, there’s a very good chance they’re not gonna last a year. And that’s true at the hourly level. As well as salaried and leadership level. 
 

Having that onboarding plan, particularly for leaders is so critical, and it can be easy to think through whether they’ve got 20 years of experience, they can just jump in, start getting integrated. That leader also needs to have a roadmap and helping that individual understand, here are the critical stakeholders you need to be speaking with. Here are the critical people that you need to understand that are gonna help you. Here are people that are gonna be avid fans. Here are the people that may offer up some roadblocks at times, and you need to start building relationships with them quickly and having that clear line of thirty, sixty, ninety, a hundred twenty days of the people you need to meet with, the kinds of meetings you need to be in, the information you need to get engaged with customers, metrics, et cetera. That is so critical. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got 20 years of experience or two months throwing anyone in the fire is not advisable. And so, having that learning roadmap is so important. And then as you think through once that person’s been in a role for a year not, and assume they’re demonstrating success, thinking through what additional work or challenges can I be giving this individual? And if you’ve got someone who’s a skilled machine operator and it’s clear that they’ve learned something very quickly, that for some people may take 18 months, how are you gonna maximize that? Particularly in this labor environment. How are you gonna maximize that and get them cross trained as much as possible? If you got some, again, someone coming in as a director of supply chain and it’s clear that they’ve created wonderful partnership, trust engagement within their first year, and it’s clear they can take on more, how are you gonna start thinking about getting more exposure for that individual and experience for that individual? A lot of times you focus on classes, particularly as you move up in your career. Still the experience always wins out, so get ’em involved in projects, ensuring they’re getting the right level of exposure so that when you’re going through and thinking through who’s our next level bench, who’s ready now? One in three years, three and five years for that next VP role, thinking through, wow, this individual’s only been here for a year, but look at what they’ve done. And then how do you create that roadmap for growth? So, with that right combination of getting them in the project experience, the exposure, and obviously the critical leadership development skills that are necessary around communication, agility, resilience, How you do that the right way from a balance of a classroom exposure, mentorship, exposure, and overall some project exposure too. So, I would say very much like recruiting. It’s not a peanut butter approach, It could be very role based. Leveling and how you’re gonna build up someone from being a maintenance mechanic to now being a maintenance manager, or it could be very intentional, individualized learning based off of the unique role or unique individual to ensure that this person clearly has potential to be a next level leader and how we’re gonna get them there to be ready for when we need them. And again, not being reactive, it’s about being proactive. 
 

[BREAK at 21:18] 

 

[00:21:57] Chris Gaffney: Aaron, you and I have worked together setting up performance management systems and obviously if you’re the HR business partner, you want to be about the business getting results. So, what is your best advice or how has your thinking and coaching evolved for the leaders you support in terms of setting up management systems, measurement systems that get results the right way and in a sustainable way? 
 

[00:22:20] Aaron Lincove: Yeah, I think we’ve all heard the old additive smart goals, being sure there’s specific, measurable, attainable, results oriented and time bound. And, it’s a timeless model. Not everyone does it well though. And so, when I think about working with my leaders on goals, you can set the overarching yearlong objectives. But what’s even more critical is setting those milestones. And it can be so hard to think through in a January, here’s what success looks like in December. We all know years do not go as planned and it is important that as a leader, as you’re working with your team, to be very agile and understand what’s impacting your goals. The initial goals up front and resetting them along the way and being very clear about it. If you had a specific milestone in June and it’s clear that because of internal or external forces that that milestone has to get modified, then work very early on with your team on reestablishing what that milestone is, and the clarity behind it is so important for that individual. There’s one of the, a phrase that, that actually a leader a supply chain told me one time that I always use is, surprises are for birthdays. They’re not for performance reviews, right? So, whether you’re doing a monthly review, a quarterly review, or a year-end review. What’s important, that there’s clarity, there’s no surprises. And as you’re setting goals along the way, if your person’s not making those goals, thinking through what is the reason? Is it behavior based? Is it competency based? Is it both? How am I gonna deal with that, the right way to be proactive? Very similar like recruiting, being proactive with performance issues is so important. I think we’ve all been there before. We kinda wait and wait and wait, and then you realize you’ve waited too long.
 

And so, Chris, as I think about those goals, it’s the clarity front. It’s the willingness to adapt and be agile based off how the year is going. it’s the importance of being clear, moving forward, and understanding how to manage that change with your employees. And then, having those ongoing open dialogues with here’s how you’re doing along the way, Here’s what you’re not doing. Here’s how I’m gonna help you. What do you need from me to be even more successful as well.
 

[00:24:32] Rodney Apple: You’ve been involved with many transformations in supporting those from the HR side. That includes restructurings, reductions in force, mergers, acquisitions seem to be on the rise. What are your thoughts on the role of HR leaders supporting and leading change, and what are your thoughts on how we, meaning the series that we are debuting, can help support and dig into this to really help, HR leaders and talent management professionals, be better partners to the business as it relates to change management?
 

[00:25:05] Aaron Lincove: Sure. This is a topic, as Chris knows, I’m extremely passionate about. When you go through an M&A activity or any kinda just large transformation in your company as an HR partner, it’s critical to understand what is changing and also critical to understand what is not changing. And it’s not just the change when it comes to the overall landscape of strategy, if it’s a big strategic change, organizational change, structure change, benefit change, right? Or anything in between, you need to understand all those puts and takes and the from and to that is absolutely critical as an HR business partner and then working with your leaders on creating those, communication plans upfront. And understanding that the level of transparency that can be provided as early as possible. We all know going through these large transformations, you can’t be as transparent as you like sometimes, cause there might be information that’s still confidential, but really understanding when you can start to release information in as early as possible and get people on to understand the what, the why, the how, and engaging hearts and minds early is so important, even when it’s gonna be changed, that you know people don’t like engaging them to understand the why and then will being willing to listen to them. To get their perspective. One of the things I’ve seen go awry is when an organization or a team starts to drive change so quickly and it could just be thinking, oh well, we’re just gonna push this button, everything will be fine. And what they don’t realize is that pushing that button then triggers multiple things in the organization from decision rights, to process change and really, so as an HR business partner, really helping a leader understand it may seem that simple, but when you do that, here are all the puts and takes that are gonna be happening and working with them to process map that out.
 

Because in the absence of nothing, people make up their own story. which usually their own story is not positive. They’re making up their own story to be negative. It is very much okay to say, Hey, I understand your concern and we wanna be empathetic to that. We don’t know the answer, but we’ll get back to you in two weeks with a clear answer. That’s our commitment to you. You can be as simple as that. That in itself creates trust with employees and a little bit of vulnerability, which is a great leadership trait. to come back and have that dialogue so that all the elements around communication. 
 

And then the last thing I’ll say is trying to create that vivid mental picture of what the future looks like. One of the things for employee and for a natural human nature is if you can picture what the future looks like, you can start, start to say, okay, I can get my head around this. I can start to see that if we put this new system in place and here’s all the things gonna happen, and over communicating that and reinforcing that over and over and over is so important. Over communicating during a time of change is okay. What you don’t wanna do is under communicate, because then start people again, start to think through that you don’t have this handled, and they’re gonna make up their own story. And that’s when you start to get into some real disengagement and cultural issues.
 

[00:28:06] Mike Ogle: Aaron, we didn’t actually have the word engagement in the series title until we talked with you. So, what does that word really mean to you? 
 

[00:28:14] Aaron Lincove: Connection. At the end of the day, it’s connectivity. Am I connected with my manager? Am I connected with my team? Am I connected with the business to the organization? Do I feel the organization’s connected with me? At the end of the day, a highly engaged employee feels valued. They feel like they’ve got their voices heard, which is all about that connection. Do I feel an emotional connection to where I’m working and to my team. Do I feel a mental connection and do I feel connection to what the company serves to do? Right to the mission, the vision, whatever product you’re serving, whatever product you’re selling. That’s, to me, is, locked in engagement. People who feel disconnected with their boss, disconnected with their work, disconnected with their organization, I think we all know what’s gonna happen. Quality of work will suffer. The smart leaders will start to see that and all of a sudden you realize that someone is gonna be leaving. And it could be someone who’s great. And for whatever reason they’ve started to feel a certain way. So to me, Mike, having a truly engaged employee, it’s about that connection.
 

And as leaders, we gotta be proactive to ensure that our employees feel that connection. And then if they don’t, have that open dialogue to help us understand why don’t you feel that connection? And what can we do better as a company, as a leader, to help you feel more connected to the team and the overall success at hand.
 

[00:29:38] Rodney Apple: Well, you’ve provided some great advice and perspectives today, Aaron, as it relates to some of the best advice you’ve received over the years. Regarding supply chain careers and advancing careers in general, what do you have to offer there for our audience?
 

[00:29:54] Aaron Lincove: Some of the best advice I’ve received. one, you own your career. And waiting for someone, your manager, or someone else to do something for you is something that, you as in particularly as you’re coming up earlier in your career, is something that, you gotta rethink, right? What are you doing personally to own your career and have that high sense of curiosity and engage with individuals to talk about your career? 
 

Second, understanding that, when it comes to your career, it is a process. And going through and figuring out if my goal in five years is to be this role, that process may take you on various paths. It’s okay to take a lateral role. In fact, lateral roles can be some of the most viable positions ever in your career. For me personally, I’ve gone laterally and it wasn’t a promotion and it was extremely valuable. And so, when I talk to individuals now they’re thinking through, I just wanna keep on moving up, up, and up. I’d encourage you to just take a step back and understand if you’re gonna be successful five years from now in that position, what’s the true depth and breadth that you need to understand first? 
 

And also having an internal board of directors. It’s your own internal board of directors that you can go to for career advice. Whether you’re having a bad day or a great day, wanting to talk through different projects, initiatives, having that board of directors that you trust and it really shouldn’t be your manager. It’s somebody else, a group of people that you can rely on and to get very honest feedback. So, as you think about your board of directors, don’t just choose people that are gonna be your best friend. That will always give you sound feedback or the feedback you want to hear, you want your board of directors to give you feedback that may hurt at times, and that’s okay. Just know that they are doing it with the best intentions for you and you as an individual. So those, Rodney, own your development value that careers aren’t always vertical. And then have people around you that you can go to for feedback, the tough feedback and the good feedback, and then figure out how to apply that appropriately.
 

[00:32:02] Mike Ogle: Have you ever seen somebody actually treat their board of directors? Kind of like a board of directors where they would actually meet together at different times.
 

[00:32:12] Aaron Lincove: I have seen people do this virtually together. I know personally, I’ve got a few people that I reach out to. But I’ve had a couple people on a call at once, right? Just wanting to get some perspective. I think if you can get two people on a call that maybe have an opposite, maybe differing perspective on an approach you might wanna take, that could be extremely valuable in thinking through how you might approach something next.
 

[00:32:36] Chris Gaffney: Aaron, this has been a great intro and warmup for what we hope will be a very valuable series. As you think about the audience, it could have been you 10 or 15 years ago in your career, your peers in industry and others, what are some of the things you hope we do right in this series to really make it valuable for people?
 

[00:32:54] Aaron Lincove: Yeah, I think it’s gonna be important to talk through how HR and talent management is going to help supply chain leaders be more successful in their roles today and their teams be more successful in their roles today. I think it’s gonna be important, as the series moves on to be discussing the importance of how HR be business partners, how talent management will be, and should be, enabling growth and accelerating growth, not just at the leadership level, individually, accelerating their own individual career growth. But also, their team’s growth and accelerating the ability to hit what’s important to them, the KPIs and metrics in their organization. And so, as you bring on leaders to talk about subject matter expertise in growing talent and learning, expertise in diversity, expertise in compliance, expertise in total rewards, I would encourage you to talk with them around, help us understand what you do is driving and accelerating growth and how you can translate that into return on investment. So it’s always easy to say, Hey, if we do this, turnover will decrease by 30%. It’s like, well that’s great. You know, what’s the true financial return that I’m gonna get in 18 months. Right? So really understanding how all these HR programs and people, programs can translate into tangible return. That’s the level that I really tried to dig in on as with your future guests.
 

[00:34:22] Mike Ogle: Aaron, thank you for your time and great thoughts today on this first episode, and we look forward to talking with you more as this series continues. 
 

[00:34:31] Aaron Lincove: Well, thank you Mike, Rodney and Chris. It’s been great to be here. Honored to be the first participant in this new series. I look forward to listening to future guests. I think this is a wonderful topic and wonderful series that, it’s gonna be valuable for a variety of individuals, HR and supply chain leaders and whatever I can do to help moving forward. Happy to.